Swinging Truths: Pendulum Dowsing in Paranormal Investigation

In this episode of Generation X Paranormal, Logan and Nicole delve into the mysterious world of pendulum dowsing—an ancient practice with modern applications in paranormal research. How can a simple swinging pendulum uncover hidden truths, communicate with spirits, or locate energy hotspots?

To find out, the team sits down with two pioneers in the field, Dan Baldwin and George Sewell, co-authors and seasoned dowsers who’ve used this method in countless investigations. They share how pendulum dowsing works, its connection to intuition, and some of the most compelling experiences they’ve had while using it to interact with the unseen.

Whether you’re a skeptic, a believer, or just pendulum-curious, this episode will open your mind to one of the most fascinating tools in the paranormal toolbox.

#GeorgeSewell, #DanBaldwin, #ParanormalInvestigation, #SpiritCommunication, #GhostHunters, #ParanormalResearch, #HauntedExperiences, #MysteryUnveiled, #AfterlifeExploration, #PsychicMediums, #GhostStories, #SpiritualEncounters, #HauntedHistory, #ParanormalExperts, #UnseenWorld

Transcript

Well, hey, everybody, welcome back.

Welcome back, everyone.

We are Generation X Paranormal.

I'm Logan.

And I'm Nicole.

And we have, you know, I always say it, we have a really interesting show, but we have a very interesting show.

Yes, it is.

And I say that because, and everybody knows that when you do paranormal, there's so many different ways you can do paranormal investigations and whatever have you, but these two gentlemen have a different way of doing it.

First time I had heard of it.

No, definitely the first time I've heard of it.

And who we have on the show is Dan and George, Dan Baldwin and George Sewell.

And they're just very interesting gentlemen in what they do, but can you kind of tell us a little bit about them?

Yeah, so Dan Baldwin is a professional writer, often a ghost writer for other professionals.

He has written and co-written or ghosted more than 60 books, and he's won numerous local, regional and national awards.

He is a certified clinical hypnotherapist, plays the Native American Flute, and is an expert pendulum dowser, having used the pendulum to assist in finding missing persons for more than 20 years.

It's amazing.

Him by himself.

And then George Sewell describes himself as a cognitive philanthropist.

He has a lifelong interest in study of the paranormal and the UFO phenomenon.

He is author of Habits, Patterns and Thoughts That Go Bump in the Night, A Gnome, A Candle in Me, Just the Facts, Please, About Alcohol and Drug Abuse, co-author with Dan, and the novels, The Chrismere and A Turn at the Point.

And they've recently just co-authored a book, which we're going to be speaking about, called The Paranormal Pendulum 3, The Abduction of Lindsay Higgins, The UFO Phenomenon, The Spirit World and Beyond.

And we have read it.

It is fascinating.

Yes, it is.

But we're not gonna give a new thing away because we're getting ready to speak with them about it.

Yeah, let's bring them on.

Let's talk to them.

Well, hey, Dan.

Hey, George, how are you?

Doing wonderful.

How are they from the West?

Ah, yes.

So, Dan, you said you're in the West.

Where are you?

I'm curious.

Phoenix Mesa, Arizona.

And George?

Yeah, Sonora Desert.

George, where are you at?

I'm in Bossier City, Louisiana.

That's the Northwest corner.

Okay.

Across the river from Shreveport.

Yeah, I actually been, we've been out in that area.

Yeah, it's home of Barksdale Air Force Base.

Okay.

And Dan, I'm actually originally from Tucson.

So that's why when you, yeah, I've spent a lot of time in Sonoran Desert.

I love it.

Like I said, I moved from, well, Shreveport, Bossier City 30 years ago and took to the desert like that.

Quite a...

Yeah, this is home, you know, this is home from the bayou to the desert.

Quite a different climate too between the two.

Yes, there is.

Dan found his sandbox.

Nice.

Well, listen guys, again, thank you so much for coming on.

We've been excited to have you guys on.

Very interested in, you know, being a show about the paranormal, we usually get the, I guess, the atypical kind of paranormal investigation tools, you know, like the, you know, the SP7 boxes, those sort of things, IOTC and all that, but before we, you know, and I know we're going to get into the pendulum, which is just, I find it so fascinating, but before we get into too much of that, we know quite a bit about you from research, but if you guys wouldn't mind kind of telling our audience a little bit about yourselves and kind of how you guys got kind of paired up and everything.

Whoever wants to go first by all means.

Well, we're paired up and originally it's George's fault, so why don't you tell that story?

Well, kind of a preface, I've had a lifelong interest in what we would call the paranormal UFOs, that whole arena.

So there was no single event or anything that got my attention.

I've always, for whatever reason, have had that interest.

As far as Dan and I getting together, it turned out, oh gosh, well, let's just say many decades ago, we were both writing for the same publication in the Shreveport-Bosier area, it was a bi-monthly magazine.

Delightful publication, I covered the arts and Dan was a feature writer.

And one day the editor of that publication, Ed Gage, gave me a call and said, George, I really think you need to meet this Dan Baldwin character.

He's pretty interesting.

I think you all would get along pretty well.

Okay, I don't promise that.

And apparently he made the same invitation to Dan.

And so we got together and have been creating Mischief ever since.

Awesome.

I don't want to date anything, but when we got together, there was a bicentennial going on at the time.

Understood.

I have been moderately interested in the occult and the paranormal and the JFK, the typical mysteries.

Yeah, all my life.

But only, you know, since that's curious, I'll read an article now and then.

And as far as the paranormal, about 20, 22 years ago, I got really interested in it.

I got a call to go find this in children.

And through that, I learned pendulum dowsing and spent 15 years as a psychic detective, which led to investigating the spirit world, which led to a phone call from George.

Hey, can we use the pendulum to investigate UFOs?

Well, let's find out.

Yeah, which led to the book that George and I wrote last year, this year.

Yeah, I've read it.

It's very interesting.

And the Lindsay Higgins story.

Which is just fascinating.

Yes, it is.

And I'm sure it's all I know.

And what did we see?

I think we watched an episode on...

Yeah, it's the episode where they speak with Lindsay.

Right.

In New George.

Netflix, their series, Haunted.

That's it, it was Haunted.

She sees them on the fifth episode.

Yeah, fantastic, by the way.

It's riveting.

Her story is something else.

Yeah, and fortunately, Lindsay is a very articulate individual, so she can tell her story very well.

Oh, yes.

Absolutely.

And what a story she has.

I'd love to talk to her sometime.

She is just out of this world.

No pun intended.

Well, she wants first.

After I said that, I'm like, you know what?

That fits.

Well, that's great.

Thanks, guys, for kind of sharing that.

That's kind of the nutshell.

The nutshell, the 30,000 foot view, as they say.

Okay, so kind of getting into it.

I guess I'll ask Dan first.

Can you or maybe both of you can do it at the same time, however you want.

Can you kind of, I guess, give us the, again, the 30,000 foot view of pendulum dowsing.

Kind of give us an idea first of, I guess, as best as you can do, you know, from...

Because most of our audience is, I'll be honest with you, probably not going to be ultra familiar with it.

Well, I'm not, actually.

Exactly.

It is kind of different from me, too.

Using it in this way, so that's fascinating to me.

Yeah, so if you wouldn't mind kind of, I guess, giving us the nuts and bolts of it.

You know, dowsing goes back.

I mean, we know it goes back at least as far as the ancient Egyptians, because they're being inscribed on the, you know, the ancient Egyptian obelisk and things like that.

But you're honest, it probably, for me, was seeing the old farmer with the old witching stick looking for water out.

Yep, dowsing rods.

Dowsing, yeah, yes.

Well, it's the same principle.

I use a rock on a string.

And basically, what you do is, in a way, it's a bit like hypnotism, because your conscious mind starts focusing on the weight, which frees up your subconscious mind.

Your subconscious mind then gets into contact with Akashic records, God, Dayav, however you want to describe it.

You can also contact the spirit world.

And as George and I found out, you can contact the inhabitants of alien craft.

And what it does is, I have to point out, it's just a rockular string.

There's no magic, there's no miracle.

It's a weight.

The movement is like, when it goes to the right, that's a yes.

When it goes to the left, that's a no.

So you ask yes or no questions.

Very tedious, but very, very accurate.

And basically, you ask the question, it's downloaded through the subconscious.

The subconscious directs your fingers, and that directs the movement, and that's your answer.

Now, the knack to it, for the person holding the pendulum, is to be able to free from influence the swing.

You know, if they really want it to be yes, they have to be very practiced to keep that desire totally out of the process.

Right.

And that's where the discipline comes in, it's just a matter of practice.

Sure.

And that makes perfect sense because of the mechanics of it alone.

You can pick this up in about, you can learn how to do it in about five minutes.

But the mental discipline, that takes a while.

I would imagine, I mean, of course, you know, I mean, just looking at it, no doubt you'd have to have a very steady hand.

That's what I always think, like, how do you hold it so still for that long?

I don't know.

You're right.

It would probably have to take just an inordinate amount of discipline to kind of get that down.

Yes, especially when I was doing the missing person work.

It's like, you know, is little five-year-old Becky still alive?

And if you think yes, you're going to get a yes.

You hope that's right, but you really want to know her real condition.

So you got to keep your mind absolutely clear.

So that you get the right answer rather than the answer you want to get.

Right.

So basically kind of act a little bit like a conduit, so to speak.

You're exactly like a conduit.

You are a conduit.

Dan, why don't you elaborate on that illustration to clarify the importance of the question.

Yeah, OK.

Yeah, something I ran into in my...

Thank you, George.

That's a great intro.

When I first started looking for missing persons, I would get surprisingly accurate answers.

I mean, with a pendulum down, if you're looking for a missing person, instead of the typical cycle, well, let's say he's in a field somewhere, there's a road and there's a mountain in the background, and I see a fence and there's a tree over here and maybe a rusted cart.

Well, that tells you nothing.

You know, because you've described eight million places.

With a pendulum dowsing, you can get latitude and longitude.

Key points.

I mean, I've gotten street addresses, you know, it's just a matter of boiling down what you're looking for.

But, yeah, I mean, I've gotten to like, the X person is at 1234 Main Street on the second floor in the closet, that accurate.

But what George was alluding to, yeah, well, what George was alluding to, I ran into a serious problem.

And yet, I'm not claiming to be 100% right because nobody is.

Yeah, when I'm wrong, I'm way off when I'm right, you know, but I'm pretty good.

And I was getting a lot of good information, very specific information, but I was always off on whether the person was alive or dead.

You know, I would get like the obvious question, you know, is little Becky alive?

And I get a yes.

Go through all my research, we find little Becky, she would be deceased.

Find Ralph, the truck driver, he's alive?

Yes.

We'd find Ralph, he'd been dead a long before I did my penultimate.

On and on and on and on.

I get very accurate descriptions and bits of information.

And I was always wrong on the life or death situation.

And one day, boing, you know, the light went off.

People don't die.

Their bodies die.

Little Becky, little Becky is not dead.

Little Becky is up in heaven playing with her a bit, Fido.

She's still alive.

So I had to modify the question.

See, I was getting an accurate answer.

I was interpreting it wrong.

Now I have to ask the question, is little Becky physically alive, this plane?

Makes all the difference in the world.

It's all in the question.

All in the question.

You know, this may be a bit in the weeds of a question, but, you know, obviously there's so many other forms of divinity tools and things like that.

But what do you, I guess, what do you attribute to the granularity of that?

That seems so, so precise of an instrument.

What do you, I guess, George, if you want to speak to that, what do you see is the reason for that kind of granularity?

I think it's because the conscious mind is focused on the pendulum.

And that whole process, and that, as Dan alluded to, I mean, that literally frees up the conscious blockage to accessing subconscious information.

And I think that's the value of the pendulum, per se, as a process for ferreting out this kind of information.

If we were to just do it without the pendulum, it's depending on how disciplined you are in that kind of meditative research, there are so many other distractions that could interfere with the process.

But again, the pendulum, it causes the consciousness to focus, and I think that's the big value of it.

One of the values that I like so much is the accuracy, because to me, the pendulum, or tarot cards, or crystal balls, it's all the same thing, it's just a different road to the same place.

And the thing I like about dowsing is you can get phenomenally, phenomenally accurate, you know, very, very specific information.

I worked with tarot cards and crystal ball, and that's open to interpretation.

And there's some people, and we worked with them, who are very good at doing the interpretation.

But with the pendulum, you ask your questions right, there's no interpretation involved.

Yeah.

And the information is so specific.

If you're wrong, you know, you can find out, you know, rather quickly.

If you're right, you solve the problem.

And so is the movement, I have a feeling people are going to want to know this.

So is it a minor movement or is it like a major swing?

Is it just barely moved to the left?

A major swing?

Both.

Yes.

Okay.

Yes.

Yes.

It doesn't matter.

Sometimes it's weak, sometimes it's strong.

It really doesn't.

As long as you get, as long as you're getting the movement, you're okay.

Because I would imagine a lot of people that are skeptical of it be like, you know, if it just barely moves, oh, well, that's just your, you know, you're just barely moving it.

So that's what I was curious about.

No, we've had all sorts of movements in our sessions from yes or no to yes.

Right.

That's interesting.

And that really hammers home the what you guys had said before about kind of being that conduit, because if it's that hyper focus, I would see that the sensitivity of your intent versus, you know, somebody else, that could definitely sway.

Again, no pun intended.

That could cause a pretty big, I guess, deviation on what's actually going on.

That is incredibly fascinating.

So, okay, let's kind of talk about some of the, I know, I'll be honest with you, Dan, I'm really curious about this.

We talked a little bit about just in the beginning about me being from Arizona.

The Tombstone connection.

Yeah, I've got to know more about that.

We love Tombstone.

Yeah.

First of all, I have probably been to Tombstone more times than I can enumerate.

So, I lived in Tucson, but my family's from Douglas.

So, we would make the trek from Tucson to Douglas.

I can't even enumerate how many times a year.

So, naturally, we stopped in Tombstone all the time.

And then when we got married, we ended up going, moving back to Arizona.

We live in Missouri now, but we moved to Arizona for quite a while.

And we would go to like Big Nose Cades and the Crystal Palace and all those sort of things.

But aside from the tourism, yeah, I'm really curious about what you guys feel about…

Because if people listening to this don't know, I would imagine that, you know, it wouldn't be a big surprise.

Tombstone is very well known for a paranormal hot spot.

But yeah, I'm curious about kind of how you guys…

What happened out there?

Can you give us some…

You know, give us an idea.

Well, as Dan has often said, when you're visiting Tombstone, that not all of the reenactors are reenactors.

We've heard that.

Yeah, yeah.

We have.

But yeah, I love going down to Tombstone.

It's a fun…

Well, I'm a history buff, so I like to be where the action is.

Hey, listen, you know, within 20, 30 miles of Tombstone, there are dozens of very historical places.

Ghost Town, Ghost Mines, abandoned forts, all kinds of stuff.

But yeah, Tombstone is definitely a hot spot.

And it's interesting because now, granted, I know that the planks and the flooring aren't exactly the same, because you see that a lot of them have, you know, like Phillips screw heads and stuff, so you know that's not original, but the buildings are for the most part.

I have really walked those streets and you're going down Allen, which Allen is, if people don't know, that's kind of the main strip of where everything is.

And obviously, the OK Corral, given what happened there, the Bird Cage, which I know that there has been countless of those shows that have gone there and reported paranormal activity.

But you don't even need to be in a building.

I've walked down those streets and gone.

You just get that sense.

You just feel it.

Yeah, well, I've got an Allen Strig story for you.

I was, when I go to Tombstone, and sometimes there are groups of us who go down there.

And I go out at night.

I mean, yeah, I'm a night person.

And so everyone, you know, they're into the motel or the bed and breakfast or whatever.

And I'm sitting around, I'm going to go to Tombstone.

I like Tombstone after everything shuts down when it gets quiet.

And I like to, you know, just try to imagine, you know, like, on a holiday, really walk right by here, you know.

So one night, you know, it was, it was, it was cool.

I had on my cowboy hat, had on my cowboy shirt, had on my vest, had on my jeans, had on my jeans, had on my cowboy boots, my heavy cowboy boots.

And it was windy, so I had my slicker on.

And I'm walking up, you were talking about the planks.

Cowboy boots on wooden sidewalks make a very distinctive plop, plop sound.

So this is, this is a little bit after midnight.

It's shut down and I'm walking down the street.

There's nobody there, except up around the birdcage.

There's a group of paranormal sightseers.

You know, they had this little, you know, paranormal tours.

And so you had the pair, you had a bunch of older people with the, with the, with the guy, you know, this is the birdcage and this is the, over on the corner, there's a bench and there was about five kids, you know, totally disinterested.

You know, oh, the ghost, you know, just like, yeah, they were like from probably 10 to 15, something like that.

And so they'll, they're watching the parents just bored out of their.

Minds and they hear the, they look up and there's this guy, cowboy hat, slicker, cowboy boots.

I walked by them and the, the, the, the teenagers with them and she said, Mr, if you de-materialize, I am going to freak y out.

That's hilarious.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I just said, you're, you're Doc Weiss.

Yeah.

And, and that's funny because-

True story.

Well, yeah.

And I believe that 100% because that, that is a known thing that happens in the streets.

I know that I think even, and again, this is getting way off into the woods, but even like Ed White was seen there, has seen there a few times.

I think that was his name, the sheriff.

Sheriff White has been seen there quite a bit.

It's very active, you know, not to mention all the things that have happened, but-

It's Bud White.

Okay.

I knew it was White, but I just couldn't remember the first name.

But yeah, I just, it's such an interesting place to go.

And I could only imagine, number one, doing a paranormal investigation anywhere in there.

But I can imagine dowsing must have just been tremendous there.

Yeah, it was.

One of the more powerful, longest in my entire life was a dowsing session in one of the buildings.

So kind of pivoting-

Yeah, you can't do it out on the streets because of the doors and everything.

Yeah.

Plus you don't want that kind of attention.

No.

Especially not on Tombstone.

They'll definitely come after you.

But kind of pivoting a little bit to Lindsay Higgins, I really don't even know how to frame that up because there's so much that we can cover there.

George, if you could talk a little bit about, I guess a little bit about the beginning of it and how you guys got involved or just sort of, yeah, did you reach out?

What kind of happened with that?

The way it all began was I was minding my business one night and the telephone rings and I don't recognize the number, but I had a little bug there that I need to take this call.

So, you know, is this George Sewell?

Yes.

Oh, this is Lindsay Higgins.

Jo Beth Maggott said I could call you and we could talk.

Oh, and what might we talk about?

And, of course, I knew what it was about just because of the way she phrased it.

And for the next two hours, I had an earful of Lindsay's life-long encounters with extraterrestrials, beginning when she was having experiences with what we would call ghost at the age of three up to the present.

And because most of what she described, I had heard before.

Back in the early 1990s, I was the Assistant State Director in Louisiana for the Mutual UFO Network.

And because of that, I had a chance to visit with a lot of people who had had some sort of encounter or other experience.

And what I realized was they weren't so much looking for an explanation of what happened or what it was.

They were desperate to find somebody they could talk to about it.

And that suited me perfectly.

My professional background is as a counselor.

So and being somewhat knowledgeable of the subject.

That's most of what I did.

Dan was living in town at that time and often he would come with me.

We would basically just spend a couple hours listening to the people describe what had been occurring.

And I noticed that there were a lot of what I would call commonalities in these accounts.

These are different people, different timeframes, different locations.

But there was enough similarity in their story that, okay, something's going on here.

There is something going on.

And so when Lindsay told me all of her experiences, every one of them could just be checked off that list.

So that immediately let me know that Lindsay is credible and she's really trying to learn what's been going on so she can get some relief.

Because she had been literally sitting on this for over 40 years.

There was only one or two other people who were aware of what she was encountering.

And she was just reaching a point to where I got to get rid of this.

I got to let go of it.

And that's where a series of events occurred that a friend that we had a mutual friend who was aware of my interest and experience in this field.

And she was aware of Lindsay's history.

And she's made the suggestion, well, I think you ought to call George.

And she did.

And it was rocking and rolling after that.

Part of what Lindsay was kind of guided to do, and the guiding thing was in the book.

That's the Kate Bateman thing.

She was guided to answer a request for stories for a Los Angeles film production company who was putting together a series for Netflix on people who had lived paranormal experiences most of their life.

So Lindsay wrote up her story, emailed it off.

Within 24 hours, she's got a response back from the production company, setting up a time to meet with the producers.

And so the next day she had a telephone conference with the producers.

They were just absolutely enthralled and said, okay, you got it.

You're going to be one of the five episodes that we're going to do.

And then they asked, is there anybody else in your area who has had the experience you have or who knows about these things?

And that's when she said, oh, well, you probably need to talk to my friend George.

So that's how I got in contact with him.

And so when Lindsay went out to Los Angeles for the shooting, I also went out there as an information source.

And that's the first time I met Lindsay was when we were on location in Los Angeles.

And it just set off a sequence of events that's still going on.

Yeah.

And, you know, we don't want to spoil anything.

We definitely want people to read your book and watch the episode.

But it is just it is phenomenal what has happened to her.

Yeah.

And it what's interesting is that, you know, you mentioned that you're in move or you were in move on.

Are you still involved?

I'm not capacity.

Right.

And Dan, are you also or did you go that route as well?

Yeah, well, no, not at all.

Yeah.

Let me say one thing real quick.

But we had questions there once.

Well, what do you believe, Lindsay?

And I said, no, absolutely.

It's not like we did one or two interviews.

But we spent a lot of time with her over about a two year period.

So and her story never broke.

Never.

You know, just in talking with you guys.

We believe absolutely.

Oh, for sure.

And just in talking with you guys, just in talking with you guys the way it is right now, you don't strike me as the kind of gentleman that would be able to handle that kind of deviation.

You'd probably call that pretty quick.

So yeah, we wouldn't waste time on it.

We'd write a book about that too.

Yeah, that's amazing.

You know, it's interesting that you said there's a lot of commonalities.

And the one thing I wanted to bring up, you know, we've talked to several people with MUFON, like Les Velez, we've spoken with Preston Dennett and a few other people.

And I find it interesting that there are so many similarities with abductees and I guess, not just abductees, but people like experiencers that have gone through that.

So you talked a little bit about the keying in on things Lindsay was saying, again, not with giving too much away, but what were some of those similarities?

Lifelong, that a lot of the people who have these experiences, it's not a one-off thing, it's not an accidental thing, it's not a random thing, it's something that has been a part of their life, in most cases, most of their life.

So Lindsay has actual memories of many of her events.

There was a lot of people who often need the assistance of hypnosis or whatever to pull forth.

Their memories, and then they'll get this information.

Lindsay, she has very distinct memories.

In fact, she had, I think she was about three years old, and this is kind of where her story begins.

And I'll tell it real briefly, Dan can add to it, because it was quite the tale.

Anyway, Lindsay's from a restaurant family, a very notable family in town.

They've had some very excellent restaurants.

And at this time, when Lindsay was very, very young, the family had leased an old railroad station, and turned it into a really nice restaurant called Central Station.

And when the restaurant was in operation, a little two, three-year-old Lindsay would be in her room upstairs in the building, and there would be nobody else on that floor while the parents were downstairs running the operation.

And one afternoon, Lindsay was looking out the window, and he said, the railroad station, so the windows go from the floor up.

I mean, they're huge.

And she's looking through the window out on the balcony.

It's a bright, sunny day, and she really wants to go outside and play.

And a little bit later, some folks coming into the restaurant noticed that there's this child running around on the balcony.

And so they go inside and alert her parents.

And of course, they rush upstairs and the window is open and Lindsay is out on the balcony.

So they retrieve Lindsay, close the window.

And there's, again, there's no one up there.

And so they have to ask Lindsay, and no way young Lindsay is going to lift that thing down.

And I've seen the window.

No, it's a heft to lift.

And Lindsay said, Oh, well, my friend Morlock opened it for me.

Interesting.

What?

Apparently, that's when it was revealed that she had an invisible friend that she interacted with frequently.

For whatever reason, she called him Morlock.

She doesn't know why she did that, but that's the name she assigned to this spirit who clearly had the ability to physically manipulate objects.

That kind of got things going with Lindsay, and Dan and I, years later, when Dan was in town doing research for his other Paranormal Pendulum books, and I said, Let's just go by the central stations, closed at the time, and let's just take the pendulum and see if any of these spirits that Lindsay dealt with many decades ago, if they're still hanging around, well, it turns out they were.

Wow, really?

And Dan and I were planning to take a pendulum tour of the oldest cemetery in Shreveport later that day.

And so after we were conversing with the pendulum to Morlock, we asked, or by chance, are you buried in the cemetery?

Yes.

Would you be willing to guide us to your particular gravesite?

Oh, yes.

So that afternoon, we're in the cemetery, and Dan's doing the pendulum thing, and it says go 30 feet north, okay, then go 20 feet west or whatever.

And eventually it led us to a small family plot of the WD.

Woodworth family.

And we said, what?

Is this what we're supposed to be?

Yes.

So the whole Morlock thing was a means to basically introduce me and Dan to WD.

Woodworth.

And Dan, I'll pass it there.

And turn to do, this is where George and I thought we were going to be dealing primarily with your typical abduction phenomena, which is, yeah, that's plenty.

By the time we got into this, again, this was like a two year process.

We were dealing with reincarnation, spirits, contact with the spirit world, contact with the ETs, and contact with higher evolved spirits.

I mean, everything suddenly was involved in this situation.

And we eventually tracked down more, like he was a friend of WD.

Woodworth.

He was, yeah, WD was at the, what was it?

What was the dollar's name, George?

Sally Murph.

Sally Murph.

Sally Murph, yeah.

Well, Lindsay is the reincarnated spirit of Sally Murph, and WD was Sally Murph's father.

Lindsay's father in this incarnation was WD.

Woodworth, that incarnation.

And to make us even stranger, this is just my personal theory, but there was a lot of spirit world activity in this particular case.

I believe we were guided from the beginning by the spirit world to get together with Lindsay to tell her story.

I think we weren't so much as manipulated as nudged.

I'll give you an example.

When I did my first Paranormal Penalty book on how to contract the departed, I lived 1,200 miles from George.

It never occurred to me to do my research in Mesa, Arizona, where I lived.

It was just like, I've got to go to George's.

I've got to drive 1,200 miles for two years one way to research this book.

I think that was one of those little nudgy things going on.

But I think we were nudged for a good purpose, to get together to investigate Lindsay's story, to tell Lindsay's story.

I think the purpose for that is primarily to let other people know that this is a common phenomenon.

It happens to a lot of people.

There's no longer any reason for you to be afraid to talk about it.

There are a lot of people out there in the same situation.

There are a lot of people out there who are willing to help you.

Don't hold back.

It's in your best interest to come out and tell your story.

I think that was the purpose behind that book.

I think they're leading us someplace else, but I don't know where that is yet.

Yet to be determined.

Yeah, it's interesting.

When it comes to the paranormal, as we've done this over the time that we've done this and spoken to several people, it's amazing how intertwined everything is.

Depending on certain belief structures and things like that, but you can correlate a lot of different things, not just with ghosts, but with UFOs, with even cryptid, interdimensional.

Yeah, it's amazing to me.

And you're right.

It's getting to that point where there's a reason why these paranormal shows and these paranormal topics are so fascinating for people because it doesn't really matter what the walk of life you come from or where you're at individually.

I think everybody gets touched by something like this in some sort of way.

Yeah, but unlike 30, 40 years ago, now they have avenues to talk about it.

Whereas previously, you just had to suck it up and that was unhealthy.

Sure, that makes perfect sense.

One of the things I noticed when I was…

George would take me along in his MUFON investigation as the objective observer.

He would do the interview and I would sit back and observe and take notes.

And I would file a report separate from George.

We wouldn't coordinate on the notes.

I would file mine and he would file his and then he would put them together.

But the people that he took me to weren't hungry for publicity.

They weren't looking to get known, to get famous, to earn a bunch of money off of it.

They just wanted to know what the hell is going on.

Most people don't want to get popularized that way.

I mean, that's hard enough to come out and be brave enough to tell your story.

And our audience is probably...

Oh, for sure.

Yeah.

And I think our audience is probably pretty tired of me saying this, but I've said it several times.

But nobody does this because there's not a ton to gain when you do something like this.

I mean, you face a lot of ridicule socially and things like that, that you're really putting yourself in a vulnerable position.

Yeah, but there's a caveat to that.

Once you understand just how broad this experience is, just how what depth is involved and just how much greater is your life, man, life becomes really a lot more fun.

Oh, yeah, that's for sure.

Agreed, agreed.

Well, there's no...

Yeah, I've got some friends who just, I've asked to go out and I'm going to do a spirit of research at this one particular place.

Why don't you come along and just be my objective?

No, no, no, don't believe in it, don't want to go there.

Nope.

And my thinking is, you have no idea of what you are denying yourself by that belief system.

I think most people are just so afraid that they don't want to admit they're afraid.

And if they see it, then they have to believe it.

And so it's easier to just be like, no, I'm not going to take part in this.

I'm not going to see it because then their mind starts to change and they don't want that.

Well, I tell you what's happened to me a lot of times.

You know, I do presentations, you know, Rotary Clubs and Qantas Clubs, you know, different retirement homes and stuff like that.

And I'll run into people and say, Dan, I really liked your presentation.

It was really interesting, very good.

I just don't believe in this.

I don't believe in the spirit world.

But Dan, one time I was at my grandmother's house.

I swear to God, I smelled baking bread in the stove.

I swear to God, I swear to God.

It happens all the time.

They don't believe it.

They got a story.

Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, even when in talking with, you know, people who do psychic practice and things like that, every single time they tell us we're not special, anybody can do what we're doing.

It's just they've been able to access that part.

Right.

Access that part.

And then, yeah, it's just, but if you can do this, you can be a pendulum bouncer.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's just, I'm still really fascinated by, you know, we have spoken to a few people like Mike Ricksecker and a few other folks that talk about frequencies and, you know, frequency healing, things like that.

It's just interesting to find some of the things that aren't so, I guess, quote unquote, mainstream when it comes to, you know, people who are first getting into paranormal and understanding those sort of things.

Out of curiosity, you know, since you guys do pendulum and things of that nature, how do you feel about other divinity items?

Like, I mean, we'll just throw caution in the wind, things like the Ouija board or even like, well, we'll start with the Ouija board because I do want to ask you about something else.

But if you want to start with something like that or other divinity tools.

I was using a Ouija board in high school, you know, so clearly there is something there because I'm not moving the planchette, and I know that my mother wasn't, she wasn't.

Something was definitely occurring.

Sure.

Yeah.

Again, I think it's all the same thing.

The pendulum works for me, works for George.

A crystal ball might work for you.

Terror cars might work for you.

Dreaming might work for someone else.

The trick is, you know, what are you attuned to that will allow you to attune yourself to the universe?

Yeah.

That makes sense.

It's all the same, just different tools.

Try something different.

The other thing I kind of wanted to bring up to you guys because it's something that we've all kind of started to adapt to are these things here, phones.

And there's been so much recently with what they call ITC.

And I don't know if you're familiar with that or not or that nomenclature, but it's basically utilizing different applications on phones to do some of these spirit box sessions and things like that.

Yeah, investigations.

Being that the majority of what you guys do is more, you know, I guess, analog for kids who are not paying attention to what analog is.

How do you feel about that?

Well, there is one application with this thing.

Ever since I got it years ago, most mornings I will take a three mile walk from my house down to what's called Mike Wood Park in Bossier City.

It's located at the south end of the runway in Barchdale.

It's a beautiful place.

And one frosty morning, the baseball field in the park just had a really big frost on it.

It was glistening.

And I said, that's cool.

Let me take a picture of this with my phone, and I'll post it on Facebook.

You know, let some folks enjoy it like I did.

And so I did.

But later that day, I started getting responses from my Facebook friends.

Oh, George, what a beautiful, beautiful field.

What's with the blue ball?

What?

I had to go back and relook at the picture.

I hadn't even noticed it.

But bigger in life, hovering above the field, was about a softball sized blue sphere.

And I said, Whoa, hello.

Because I sure as heck didn't see it, but the camera caught it.

So I made it a practice.

After that day, whenever I was at the park, when I would come to that particular location, I would just recreate that photograph.

And about seven out of ten times, there would be in the photograph a sphere.

Sometimes hovering the ground, sometimes it would be up in the tree, sometimes it would be above the trees.

But it was definitely there.

And okay, so something's going on here.

Again, I'm not seeing it.

Camera is.

So I sent a whole bunch of the photographs out to Arizona, and Dan, would you take your pendulum and see if you can make sense of what's going on here?

And he did.

And what he came up with is that there was one particular sphere.

I would call it the blue sparkly.

It was a blue sphere, and it had lots of internal white sparkles.

It was really delightful, whatever it was.

But according to Dan's pendulum, that blue sphere was the spirit of someone known to me, but not in this lifetime.

And I say, whoa, hello, because I've never really pursued any of my previous incarnations.

Just, what's the point?

But I had to get a little curious here now.

Well, someone known to me, but not in this lifetime.

So I was kind of just meditating and pondering on that.

And then I had an idea, literally come into my head out of nowhere, duh.

I need to look at 19th century American actresses.

And so I went looking around on the internet and for 19th century American actresses.

And I kept coming across one particular actress, Kate Bateman.

Okay.

Is there anything to this?

And it turned out that...

Sorry, got something going on here.

Pass it over to Dan for a minute.

I'll come back to Kate.

Yeah, I need to address your question.

You will notice there, George had the high technology, using high technology.

But to get his answer, he had to go analog.

Go to the old pendulum.

Keep in mind, I'm a sixth century guy trapped in the 21st.

And I don't knock the rim pods or the spirit boxes or all that stuff.

It works for some people.

But if you want to know if a spirit is present, ask.

You don't need a light flickering.

You don't need a voice.

If you want to know the answer to a specific question, you don't have to wait for a one word, church, dirt, mouse, rover, whatever.

Is there a spirit here?

Yes.

Is the spirit male?

Yes.

Are you whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever.

You can use the analog to get far more answers, far more accurate answers faster.

That makes perfect sense.

Asking yes or no questions.

I'm not knocking those instruments.

They work for other people.

But I just think the way we do it is a little bit better.

Yeah, absolutely.

It makes sense.

We have the RIM pod.

We have those sort of things.

But we recently went to a Spirit Con and we got some dowsing rods because that's actually something that we kind of want to expand on a little bit too.

So I'm always curious because everybody investigates differently and everybody kind of has a different way of doing things.

And especially with the tools that they use, I always find it interesting because you're right, it all boils down basically to the same thing.

It's just how you get there is always fascinating to me and people's process.

I'm a process driven person.

When Dan and I are using these tools, it's part of a research process.

We're not doing it for amusement.

It's a research tool that has, at least in my mind, has definitely proven itself.

So, use of the process will be, we'll do the pendulum, get all this information.

And then very often, I'm able to reaffirm the information through other sources.

Okay.

A lot of things...

Well, a lot of things like...

Okay, and you've got a wealth of information, for gosh knows, since the early 19th century.

So, back to Kate Bateman.

I mean, I was able to come up with a historical newspaper record of her acting career and just got so much information out of that.

And we do that frequently just to, again, validate that we are getting accurate information from this process.

Right.

Yeah, we had an interesting session with Lindsay's dad.

We were at the train station, and we were doing some research.

He started out very skeptical and became a believer right quick.

But we were doing the session, and he agreed to volunteer, and we were investigating Morlock.

And he was very knowledgeable about the train station history and the people who lived there.

And he started asking questions of whoever we were talking to at the time, the spirit we were talking to at the time.

And George and I didn't know any of these people who had a clue about what he was talking about.

But he would ask a question, I'd give the answer, you know, yeah.

He'd ask another question, I'd give the answer that I got, yeah.

It went on and on.

This went on for probably half an hour.

But we went to a whole series of questions.

And using, I'm not bragging to myself, but using the pendulum, flipped on every one of them.

You know, instant verification.

And at that point, you know, wow, I think there's something to this.

Yeah.

You know, one thing I like about the way we do it with pendulum dowsing, you can get enough specific information to verify.

It would be so, and I find that just amazing because if you're in a, if you're going through an investigation or going through your process, to have that kind of granularity and that command of the situation that, you know, you're able to speak on some things, like you said, that there's no way you would have known that, you know, and just get that level of granularity is just amazing.

You know, you can make the case for a lot of different tools.

I get it.

But I'll be honest with you.

It may be something, you know, we try out at some time.

I'd love to watch that in play.

Yeah, that's fantastic.

So Dan, I got to ask you a question because it's just something that I've always wondered when people have this kind of ability and do these sort of things.

Especially since you can kind of do it somewhat remotely, you don't have to be there at the time.

Do you ever, and you can answer your question, answer it in any way you want to, but do you ever watch some of these shows and be like, okay, wait a minute, and you kind of pull out the pendulum and kind of go, how full of, you know, what are these people?

And you kind of, you know, kind of start looking at, you know, some of it.

Well, on some of them, you don't even need to do it.

Good point.

I mean, is every house you investigated demonic?

I think we all know who we're talking about.

Have you run into 13 demons in a row?

And I'm not saying they're not demons out there, but really.

And I saw one show, they were, I don't even remember which one it was, but they were, I need to make a point after this, so don't let me forget, but they were driving up to the house and they were, the house was like a quarter mile away and they were going, oh, this is demonic.

Oh, this is going to be demonic.

How do you know that before you investigate?

Yeah, I don't, I couldn't imagine it though.

You know, the demonic and people in trouble reminded me of a story.

I saw a program like yours, it was from England, and they were doing more investigating.

They went to a haunted house and they picked up an EVP of a woman screaming for help.

They got the EVP, you know, it was a terrorized woman.

And that's what they got.

And then that was, well, we got an EVP and then they marched on.

If you're dealing with a situation like that and you're a pendulum dowser, you don't have to leave it at that.

You can ask questions.

You can contact a spirit.

If not that spirit, you can contact another spirit.

Are we really dealing with someone who is in trouble here?

Can we help this person who is in pain or is in torment?

Can we help this person out?

Yes or no.

Can you help us make that bridge?

And I've done that.

That's amazing.

But instead of just getting your EVP and going on and broadcasting it, if you've got the tools, you can actually help people.

And some of the people you can help just happen to be non-physical.

But that just drove me crazy.

It's like if you walk by a house and you hear a woman screaming, and you go, well, that was interesting, and walk on by.

Why would you do that with a spirit?

That's one of my biggest frustrations watching those shows, is they go in, they get stuff, but then they don't do anything about it, and then they just leave.

And I'm like, what is the purpose of this?

It's just for show.

More often I see them, they're almost basically handing them a ticking time bomb.

Here you go.

Yeah, I stirred all this up and now we're going to leave.

Have a nice day.

Well, fellas, listen, I know that our audience is probably going to want to know a lot more about, first of all, about what you guys do.

And obviously we're going to direct them to the book for sure.

But what would be the best way for any of our audience to reach out to you or just kind of get to know a little bit more about what you guys are doing?

Probably through the websites.

For me, that would be www.georgeesewell.com.

And that's pretty much everything I'd want to know or could know or would be afraid to know.

It'll be there somewhere.

My websites are www.danbaldman.com and www.fournightspress.com.

That's F-O-U-R-K-N-I-G-H-T-S, Four Nights Press.

My email address is in the book.

And it's on the website.

You can look up my email address on the website.

I'll make sure and put those links on our page when we release the episode and link to the book as well so that way people can find it easier.

For sure.

We just happened to have it.

Perfect.

That's what it looks like.

Yeah.

I like the cover.

It's awesome.

E-book, paperback and hardback.

That's what it looks like.

That's the Lindsay Higgins story.

Folks, that is what you need to pick up.

Yes.

So if you're at all interested, even if you're not interested, I recommend reading it.

Dan, before I let you go though, are you a Saints fan or are you a Cardinals fan?

I mean, what happened?

Did you have to change sports teams?

Are those local teams?

He's just like me.

He doesn't care.

No, every time I talk to somebody from Louisiana, they're just usually very, very diehard either Saints fans or one of the teams out there.

Well, listen, fellas, thank you so much for coming on the show.

We had an absolutely amazing time.

And I mean this, that what you guys do is so fascinating.

Again, we see so many of these other divinity tools and things used, and it is something different for us.

So thank you for coming on and letting us know.

Absolutely.

Well, listen, guys, we're going to let you go and we'll talk to you soon.

All right.

That was a lot of fun.

That was, yeah.

They're so fascinating, you know, and I guess because, you know, typically when we do things in the paranormal, you're so used to like the...

Typical.

Yeah, the typical.

You know, you're always seeing, you know, the REM pods.

You know, we talked about the shows and things like that.

Everything's very production.

Everything's become technical.

Yeah.

Which is fine.

I mean, it's the time period that we live in.

For sure.

But I like that this is like the old school way of like how, you know, it's all about that connection between yourself and whatever you're speaking with.

I mean, it just, it does.

I mean, what Dan said, it's just easy.

Yeah.

Like you get to the bottom of it.

You don't have to have any special anything.

You just use this little thing that's hanging right there.

And the granularity they can pull out of it.

It's just amazing.

And in reading the book that he does, you know, describe like how he uses the questions, because that may be a little, you know, people don't understand.

But I mean, using, it's just like the Ouija board, yes or no, you don't get to spell anything out per se, but you can, you know, lead it down to a certain point, which is interesting to me.

I'd love to actually watch someone do that.

Because I guess I am a little still confused on getting to like, like latitude and longitude.

You know how he was talking about that and getting street addresses.

Like, I don't know what question you asked to get to that.

It's just amazing.

Yeah.

I'd love to watch and see it in action.

Yeah.

I mean, guys pick up their book.

It's really good.

It's a great read.

It's just a good time and yeah, I can't say much more than that.

I can guarantee it's nothing you've ever heard before.

Yeah, for sure.

But again, guys, thank you so much for joining us.

If you're listening on the podcast, please, you know, follow wherever you're listening.

And if you're watching on YouTube, like, subscribe, hit the notification bell, all that fun stuff.

But other than that, we'll see you next week.

And come on and join our Facebook group.

Yes, Paranormal Group for the Eventually Deceased.

Share your pictures, videos, you know, if you've got concerns, if anything's happened to you and you need someone to talk to, come on there and join and we can help you out.

That's right.

She almost got me to not say it.

That's not good.

Hey, guys, you have a good night and we'll see you next week.

See you next week.